Curse

Unreal Havoc · Jul 05, 2009, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Random gibberish.

Dude if you can't read clearly between the lines and see what I'm saying then I can't help you.

Oh and mocking people and saying they lack experience based over what builds they currently run isn't going to help your debate any more.

If you can't keep it civil, and constructive, then don't bother.

Unreal Havoc · Jul 05, 2009, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

While you have very good points, this one isn't exactly accurate. If AP is getting removed enough you shouldn't be using AP not discord :P

Why?

First discord can work without hexes, it needs a condition and either a hex or an enchantment. Ok, hexes are easier to control.

But that is why having multiple foe affecting hexes and multiple fast recharging ones gets useful. Barbs, shadow of fear, etc, might not be as good for the AP caller play style, but for a DoT melee build that uses discord will do just fine.

Or just use Enfeebling Blood? That way the Discord Necros can spam away at whatever you call that's affected.

Paul Dawg · Jul 05, 2009, 10:55 PM // 22:55

I was responding to Igor, who WAS talking as though I were retarded.

And yes, of course I agree with you that there is no single hero setup that will be the best combination in every conceivable situation. But other people have been arguing as though discord is just that. And I'm sure the pvxwiki team can be fine-tuned. But still... Last night I vanqed Maishang Hills with it, and that's not a particularly difficult zone. Yes, I was able to finish it, but not especially quickly (ca. 40 minutes), and I wiped when I faced Seacrash. AP was a waste against him, because he's a boss; he can't be KD-ed, so EVAS was kinda meh; and his buddy the island guardian heals him, so he doesn't go down right away, even with three necroes spamming discord. Meanwhile he pelts the party with his AoE attacks.

The point isn't so much that PI and SY! would have handled him better (though they certainly would have), but that he doesn't present problems that I would consider all that unusual, and the discord team was really kinda mediocre against him.

As for your question about which heroes I'd rather use instead--I've been toying with the idea of posting my various hero builds, since (if I say so myself) I think they're all better than the stuff marked "great" on pvxwiki, some of them substantially so. I recently gave a new spirit spam hero in a different thread (who by the way also takes out Seacrash in seconds).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

I don't think anyones retarded, if I'm quite honest I think I'm being quite respectful and trying to understand and value other opinions. I'm also trying to debate my point in a constructive manner, looking at both sides of the coin.

It's not the best hero setup, you know why? Because every area is different and requires different skills and strategies to conquer. If you want the upmost best out of your hero setup you will be constantly changing them around and switching skills to get the maximum efficiency. You would never run the exact same team build twice.

It is however the best "general" hero setup you can run that can work pretty much anywhere with little micromanagement, regardless of whether you're a caster or a physical. If you have a "general" hero setup that you think is better than Discordway, other than Sabway, or Racway (which are also both pretty good hero builds in their own rights), then please share it with us.

Improvavel · Jul 05, 2009, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

Or just use Enfeebling Blood? That way the Discord Necros can spam away at whatever you call that's affected.

Don't get your point. No sarcasm.

Life bringing said

Quote:

usually i bring one hex(something like parasitic bond because it's cheap and recharges quickly), one condition(enfeeble or similar), and the last two slots can be anything thats needed for the area. The hex and condition are for the off chance that AP gets removed before the target dies. This is only a precaution, because if AP is getting removed enough to cause problems at every mob, you shouldnt be using Discord in said area.

He/she didn't mention any backup curser. Fail to see how Enfeebling blood will solve lack of hex or AP.

Unreal Havoc · Jul 05, 2009, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

I was responding to Igor, who WAS talking as though I were retarded.

You'll find he is retarded. Sorry Igor <3

Quote:

And yes, of course I agree with you that there is no single hero setup that will be the best combination in every conceivable situation. But other people have been arguing as though discord is just that. And I'm sure the pvxwiki team can be fine-tuned. But still... Last night I vanqed Maishang Hills with it, and that's not a particularly difficult zone. Yes, I was able to finish it, but not especially quickly (ca. 40 minutes), and I wiped when I faced Seacrash. AP was a waste against him, because he's a boss; he can't be KD-ed, so EVAS was kinda meh; and his buddy the island guardian heals him, so he doesn't go down right away, even with three necroes spamming discord. Meanwhile he pelts the party with his AoE attacks.

The point isn't so much that PI and SY! would have handled him better (though they certainly would have), but that he doesn't present problems that I would consider all that unusual, and the discord team was really kinda mediocre against him.

What else was you running? Was it just Hero & hench? Or did you bring players aswell?

I ran Sabway with a Stunning Strike spear build instead when I did that vanquish while my mate ran Discordway and we took him down that way.

Quote:

As for your question about which heroes I'd rather use instead--I've been toying with the idea of posting my various hero builds, since (if I say so myself) I think they're all better than the stuff marked "great" on pvxwiki, some of them substantially so. I recently gave a new spirit spam hero in a different thread (who by the way also takes out Seacrash in seconds).

I'd love to see them, not out of doubt, out of genuine interest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Don't get your point. No sarcasm.

He/she didn't mention any backup curser. Fail to see how Enfeebling blood will solve lack of hex or AP.

It was in reference to your last sentence. Spreading a hex and condition for Discord among a mob so they can spam Discord without you.

Enfeebling Blood is a hex that affects nearby foes and causes weakness. (I'm assuming you know I'm just clarifying).

Tenebrae · Jul 05, 2009, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

Dude if you can't read clearly between the lines and see what I'm saying then I can't help you.

Oh and mocking people and saying they lack experience based over what builds they currently run isn't going to help your debate any more.

If you can't keep it civil then don't bother.

Read between the lines ... see ? that your problem , i say " A B " and you argue with me like i said "A B C" . Word is cheap , you should start saying somethin specific instead general speaking , otherwise is like saying nothing.

Also saying you played bla bla bla from the start doesnt make it true and if someone thinks that you LACK of experience on Assassin Melee that just an OPINION , im not insulting you but as always , i say "A B" and you understand "C" .

Keep it civil yeah , because now ( you edit some post ) calling ppl that doesnt do what you think "not smart enough" or just guessing they arent skilled enough is being polite , right , ok mate. Ofc after this post you are gonna take it all as an insult and or surprise me by accusing me of somethin i never did or said so please , dont bother to answer , i wont bother anymore either if you dont.

If ppl keep saying "general" things and fake times this is getting nowhere , im just LMAO just the way some of them talk like APcaller makes discord go 300% faster or something that without it . Amazed , just amazed.

PD:BTW who the hell let that Troll Igor out of the cage again ?

Improvavel · Jul 05, 2009, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

Y
Enfeebling Blood is a hex that affects nearby foes and causes weakness. (I'm assuming you know I'm just clarifying).

No. It is a spell that causes a condition. It isn't an hex so it wont proc for discord hex clause.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Enfeebling_Blood

Unreal Havoc · Jul 05, 2009, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

No. It is a spell that causes a condition. It isn't an hex so it wont proc for discord hex clause.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Enfeebling_Blood

My mistake, sorry. I don't know how I got that in my head.

Unreal Havoc · Jul 06, 2009, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Read between the lines ... see ? that your problem , i say " A B " and you argue with me like i said "A B C" . Word is cheap , you should start saying somethin specific instead general speaking , otherwise is like saying nothing.

Ok...

This is pointless and getting us nowhere.

Specific enough for you?

Quote:

Also saying you played bla bla bla from the start doesnt make it true and if someone thinks that you LACK of experience on Assassin Melee that just an OPINION , im not insulting you but as always , i say "A B" and you understand "C" .

Yet you assume with no evidence to back it up. Lol at having a 32 month old Assassin as my main character that has absolutely no experience playing melee, the thought of it.

For the record I am not, and most certainly do not claim to be, the most knowledgeable player in Guild Wars, but that doesn't mean I am absolutely clueless about anything or have no idea whatsoever how to play at the very least my main class. I'm not perfect, and I even make mistakes, that doesn't mean I lack experience.

Quote:

Keep it civil yeah , because now ( you edit some post ) calling ppl that doesnt do what you think "not smart enough" or just guessing they arent skilled enough is being polite , right , ok mate. Ofc after this post you are gonna take it all as an insult and or surprise me by accusing me of somethin i never did or said so please , dont bother to answer , i wont bother anymore either if you dont.

Ok and where did I say no one was smart enough or skilled enough? Show me where I have directly said anyone here doesn't have any skill or intelligence? I try not to insult people where I can help it, it rarely helps anything.

Have you ever thought that stuff that has been removed was removed because the poster felt it was inappropiate and unnessacary?

If you like I won't look back on things I post and think, hmm maybe that's wrong to post I shouldn't say that, and just post whatever and have no consideration for anyone at all.

Quote:

If ppl keep saying "general" things and fake times this is getting nowhere.

It's taken you 6 pages to work that one out?

Ok.

Quote:

PD:BTW who the hell let that Troll Igor out of the cage again ?

Not guilty.

Lastly this is going way off topic.

Super Igor · Jul 06, 2009, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I know that AP callers will work very well with casters and know it can work with an assassin. If you start using it with other physicals I'll deeply disagree because in that case using the physicals as physicals will be much more efficient.

What about Dervs?

As physicals they are inferior to Critscythes, WE Scythewars and even SS Scytherits oO but they do better job as support characters providing backup heals/buffs.

So nop, I think AP caller on Derv would be more efficient.

Quote:

You don't use a second restoration necro. Most people use 2 necro/resto. You will a curse necro and add several curses, like MOP if needs be. Other people will say that will reduce the number of discord casts.

I never understood people who use MoP on Discord...

It's a 20 second rehcarge hex after all, youre killing pretty fast even with physical as a caller so the hexed target will be down before MoP deals any significant damage.

Quote:

I think u misunderstood my point - my point was: while a caller can make it go smoother (especially in the first mob or so), discordway is strong because NECROMANCER HEROES RULE COMPARED TO OTHER HEROES, due to SR, and heroes are good at spamming, so they spam hexes and discords really well regardless.

Thing is, why make them have to cast hexes/condis if you can apply those quicker while they Discord away.

Also, try to keybind Discord for best results.

Quote:

I made this thread because some people in that thread about "what heroes for an assassin" were saying "play caller and discord or play melee with sabs", and "nonono you can't play discord without a caller" and in my experience those are all lies.

You cant deny playing with a caller is so much better, at least because you have a better view of things for starters. >_>

AngeliqueSynner · Jul 06, 2009, 02:23 PM // 14:23

I call for a discord team with Icy Veins and "YMLaD!"
With a back up trigger of Pain Inverter and "Finish Him!"
Icy Veins lasts longer [25+ seconds at 9 S.R.] than A.P. [14 seconds at 12 D.A.] also I.V. recharges in 5 seconds. So you needn't fear hex removal as much. :]
And I just have a fetish for it. :]

It works just fine that way, so the effective answer is: No, Discordway doesn't need AP to function effectively. :]

Super Igor · Jul 06, 2009, 04:05 PM // 16:05

It also has low-ass damage and doesnt recharge all of your skills... >_>

Also, who cares about long duration when you kill in ~3 seconds max anyway and then all of your skills are recharges anyway.

AngeliqueSynner · Jul 06, 2009, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

It also has low-ass damage and doesnt recharge all of your skills... >_>

Also, who cares about long duration when you kill in ~3 seconds max anyway and then all of your skills are recharges anyway.

I know it doesn't recharge my skills.
But as for damage. It's more helpful in that department than AP. :]
And besides.
1 - 2 - dead.
The only time I have to use more than the first 2 skills on my bar, per single enemy, is when there's a boss.
So recharge doesn't really catch me as a sell point. :]

AtomicMew · Jul 06, 2009, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

blah blah blah... zomg lsoe so mucho time using e-mange skill!!11

BS dude. E-management takes ~1-2 seconds every ~10-20 seconds. Compare that with the time wasted running from target to target in melee. ~(1-2 seconds every 3-4~ seconds) Not even close. The hypocrisy in this thread is pretty mind-blowing.

Besides, MS/DB is a terrible melee choice, even if you do choose melee. u shouldn't even have enough time to use MS since things should be dead before then. SA or critscythe FTW.

Super Igor · Jul 06, 2009, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngeliqueSynner

I know it doesn't recharge my skills.
But as for damage. It's more helpful in that department than AP. :]
And besides.
1 - 2 - dead.
The only time I have to use more than the first 2 skills on my bar, per single enemy, is when there's a boss.
So recharge doesn't really catch me as a sell point. :]

1-2-dead maybe but then you wait for ymlad to recharge and have your next spike without the 80 armor ignoring damage and a kd. Not good.

You also cant bring evas and will have most spikes without FH! and FH! saved loads of time.

AngeliqueSynner · Jul 06, 2009, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

1-2-dead maybe but then you wait for ymlad to recharge and have your next spike without the 80 armor ignoring damage and a kd. Not good.

You also cant bring evas and will have most spikes without FH! and FH! saved loads of time.

61 Damage.
I'm only R5 Norn.
And 10 second recharge is not make or break. :/
Especially since it takes 5 or 6 to kill the first enemy. :3
Enjoyment > Speed.

Improvavel · Jul 06, 2009, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Besides, MS/DB is a terrible melee choice, even if you do choose melee. u shouldn't even have enough time to use MS since things should be dead before then. SA or critscythe FTW.

Yeah because the discord heroes will go as "hey the target has 1 condition and 1 hex so lets spike them. Nope I wont heal that dude nor raise a minion, nor use any of my other 5 skills, I'll just use discord to spike because we need a kill every 2 seconds. Actually I'm going to even cancel the casting of this Aegis so the target will drop to below 50% and the caller can use FH".

Oh, and the enemies will never throw a heal on the target you are calling. Oh wait, the mobs you face never have more than 1 healer. Ah you YMLAD 1 healer and throw EVAS the other dude and cast some other condition and still deal the same damage...

But nope, you can never run GPS+DB+MS chain because every single mob will remove your enchantments and block. Nor can you use the Golden Fox Strike + Exhausting Assault+MS+DB chain.

Every mob has blocking, every mob has enchant removal, every mob will overwhelm you with blindness and hexes, every mob will kite like madmen against a sin and will never stop to cast any skills, but no mob will ever ever do anything to disrupt the AP caller sin. Nope always work as planned and if you can't achieve that it is because you are a noob and can't time stuff properly, but no person can get all the things right with a melee assassin just plain impossible and if you can you are just a noob.

And because it is so impossible for the MS/DB call a target and attack one of his own accord, or whatever is more appropriate in the given situation.

Paul Dawg · Jul 06, 2009, 10:44 PM // 22:44

It was just hero-hench. Seacrash goes down in seconds with PI and SY!; I'm used to taking him out that way all the time. With the discord team from the pvxwiki, he was a major PITA.

HOWEVER...I have to say that tweaking the AP caller has made the team much stronger. I don't have too many quibbles with the hero setups; they can be fine-tuned, and I still think skills like recovery are a waste, but overall they're sound. What really sucks, in my opinion, is the standard AP caller, because it works 90% of the time, and is helpless the other 10% of the time.

So this is where my AP caller currently stands:

assassin's promise
enfeebling blood
mark of pain
ebon vanguard assassin support
rigor mortis
finish him!
sadist's signet
pain inverter

The first hex CANNOT be assassin's promise. Too often, it'll fail, and then tbh you're screwed for a while (sorry, Igor). What I typically do is MoP, EVAS, enfeebling blood, and then USUALLY the target will be ready for AP-FH! If the target survives EVAS and starts blocking, rigor mortis will polish him off. If the target is a crazy ele boss who enjoys constant healing (exactly like Seacrash, and also like Joff, who was today's Z bounty), PI will take him out (and also serve as a proc hex). For the PI haters: you're right, you're only going to be using it about 5% of the time. And that's the 5% of the time that you'd wipe without it.

The only skill that's meh is sadist's signet, but it can help.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

What else was you running? Was it just Hero & hench? Or did you bring players aswell?

I ran Sabway with a Stunning Strike spear build instead when I did that vanquish while my mate ran Discordway and we took him down that way.

Unreal Havoc · Jul 06, 2009, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

It was just hero-hench. Seacrash goes down in seconds with PI and SY!; I'm used to taking him out that way all the time. With the discord team from the pvxwiki, he was a major PITA.

HOWEVER...I have to say that tweaking the AP caller has made the team much stronger. I don't have too many quibbles with the hero setups; they can be fine-tuned, and I still think skills like recovery are a waste, but overall they're sound. What really sucks, in my opinion, is the standard AP caller, because it works 90% of the time, and is helpless the other 10% of the time.

So this is where my AP caller currently stands:

assassin's promise
enfeebling blood
mark of pain
ebon vanguard assassin support
rigor mortis
finish him!
sadist's signet
pain inverter

The first hex CANNOT be assassin's promise. Too often, it'll fail, and then tbh you're screwed for a while (sorry, Igor). What I typically do is MoP, EVAS, enfeebling blood, and then USUALLY the target will be ready for AP-FH! If the target survives EVAS and starts blocking, rigor mortis will polish him off. If the target is a crazy ele boss who enjoys constant healing (exactly like Seacrash, and also like Joff, who was today's Z bounty), PI will take him out (and also serve as a proc hex). For the PI haters: you're right, you're only going to be using it about 5% of the time. And that's the 5% of the time that you'd wipe without it.

The only skill that's meh is sadist's signet, but it can help.

I personally don't think you should bother with Rigor Mortis unless it's a boss (I can see why throw it on but I don't think it's really nessecary most of the time). The EVAS main attacks are unblockable (Iron Palm-Fox Fangs-Nine Tail Strike). Stuff will pretty much die by the time they even think about throwing up blocking stances (enchantments can be removed by a Necro with Rip Enchantment) because Discord should be hitting by the time your Assassin has teleported. You should quite literally be using Finish Him by the end of the EVAS chain if done right.

Are you running this on a Necro? Because that looks energy heavy aswell.

AtomicMew · Jul 07, 2009, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Yeah because the discord heroes will go as "hey the target has 1 condition and 1 hex so lets spike them. Nope I wont heal that dude nor raise a minion, nor use any of my other 5 skills, I'll just use discord to spike because we need a kill every 2 seconds. Actually I'm going to even cancel the casting of this Aegis so the target will drop to below 50% and the caller can use FH".

Oh, and the enemies will never throw a heal on the target you are calling. Oh wait, the mobs you face never have more than 1 healer. Ah you YMLAD 1 healer and throw EVAS the other dude and cast some other condition and still deal the same damage...

But nope, you can never run GPS+DB+MS chain because every single mob will remove your enchantments and block. Nor can you use the Golden Fox Strike + Exhausting Assault+MS+DB chain.

Every mob has blocking, every mob has enchant removal, every mob will overwhelm you with blindness and hexes, every mob will kite like madmen against a sin and will never stop to cast any skills, but no mob will ever ever do anything to disrupt the AP caller sin. Nope always work as planned and if you can't achieve that it is because you are a noob and can't time stuff properly, but no person can get all the things right with a melee assassin just plain impossible and if you can you are just a noob.

And because it is so impossible for the MS/DB call a target and attack one of his own accord, or whatever is more appropriate in the given situation.

Way to completely ignore the REAL issue. E-management takes far less time than it takes for melee to run around.